Engineering Firm Basler & Hofmann – BIM Refurbishment Part 2

Johannes (01:41.837)
Today we are talking about BIM in maintenance. We are talking to Matthias Kuhn. He started construction at the engineering office of Basler and Hoffmann 16 years ago. In between he was working as an engineer in Australia for three years. Today he is the head expert of digital planning at Basler and Hoffmann. Maybe Basler and Hoffmann, a quick overview. He has 700 employees, is one of the largest engineering offices in Switzerland and has locations in Germany, Italy, Slovakia and Singapore. They have a very large competence spectrum. I saw online on the homepage that it is even alphabetically ordered. And we want to welcome Matthias Kuhn here at Concretely. Hello Matthias!

Mathias Kuhn (02:28.226)
Hello 

Johannes (02:30.921)
Matthias, maybe for the introduction, can you briefly explain how you got to the digital planning and what you like?

Mathias Kuhn (02:39.766)
I think how I got to this is relatively simple. I have a certain affinity to the topic of digital or computing. That’s been here for a long time. And when the topic of digitalization in the construction industry became more important five or ten years ago, it was of course an opportunity, this hobby that was still there, to take it into the profession.

Johannes (03:10.838)
All right. Before we talk about BIM in the maintenance, maybe I’ll try to summarize it briefly. What is BIM? Building Information Modeling. It’s about the digitization of the planning process. For me, it’s also about simply collecting information centrally and simply exchanging between all the participants and interest representatives. That means, if, for example, in the planning process there is already some change of the building, a detail has to be changed, then it can be adjusted and the impact or effects will be displayed quickly for all participants. This of course saves time, money and problems. Another big advantage is that the information or the model can be used in facility management after the project.

Johannes (04:05.27)
Many people understand a exact digital twin of the building object under billing information modeling, a 3D model with plans, all that stuff. I wanted to ask briefly, also for a start, what do you understand under BIM and what information does it really need?

Mathias Kuhn (04:23.35)
I believe that I understand a connection between models with data and processes. And as a basis for these three things, models, geometry models, data and processes, you need the application field and goals. And depending on these goals and the application fields built on it, you can then define what you actually need.

Do you need a very precise geometry or is it enough to have a certain frame as a geometry model? Do I need data? Which one do I need and what processes do I need? Do I need processes to coordinate between 10 and 20 different plans or do I need processes and data to be able to do maintenance planning to know what I have to invest in a construction site in 5 years or 10 years? Where do I have to do an inspection and so on?

And I think BIM is exactly this combination of these three components, again, model, data and processes, and then deliberately selected. There is no BIM, it is relatively open and that is perhaps also what we are currently doing at work, to find out where we use what, how, so that we can use it in a meaningful way.

Johannes (05:48.509)
Okay, that’s very interesting. It’s actually much more flexible than some might imagine. Such a BIM-use is very dependent on the application case. And also interesting today, because we want to focus more on the maintenance. We will then maybe describe what is needed for this later. Perhaps in this context, what would you say are the advantages and disadvantages of planning offices to use a BIM model?

Mathias Kuhn (06:18.394)
I think maybe not a disadvantage, but simply a start. A hurdle is the investment effort that you have to drive to become fit. That is investment in software and hardware. This is always seen as the most important hurdle or the first hurdle. Effectively, however, it is the investment in people, skills, capacity and also the development of the appropriate processes.

the difficulty, the effort you have to put in at the beginning.

Johannes (06:52.645)
Okay. And maybe advantages in the implementation for you? Or is it more for the owner or facility management?

Mathias Kuhn (07:03.522)
No, I think it has to be… With these changes, there must also be advantages in terms of planning. I think we have advantages there. Projects are faster understandable. It is now the case that you can understand a 3D model faster, can imagine geometry better, how it actually looks like when you have to put it back together in your head from planning. Here, the understanding is really higher.

You can discuss a topic more concretely, less abstractly. And if we then add the coordination over several plans, then the probability is certainly lower that you have misunderstandings.

Johannes (07:47.382)
That means that the more people involved, the greater the advantage. There is an exchange of information. Can you say that?

Mathias Kuhn (07:55.606)
Yes, that’s basically the way to say it. But there is a hindrance. When there are many participants, the probability is greater that one of the participants or several of the participants do not have the same understanding of BIM, cannot or want to adhere to the processes for any reason and then it suddenly becomes very, very exhausting.

Because then we suddenly have hybrid processes, where one part works with models, another part works with plans, and then the coordination becomes very complex.

Johannes (08:34.061)
That’s what you meant earlier, that in the future it might take more work to create guidelines and to define clear processes, depending on the application case, so that everyone agrees if I understand correctly.

Mathias Kuhn (08:47.954)
Yes, you understand that right. Maybe it’s not even the work of the guidelines, or the most important work, but first of all to understand how to set guidelines. That you know how to start a project, how to do what you want to achieve at the end.

Johannes (09:09.)
Okay. Maybe for the listeners a overview of what you offer as a planning office to your customers. These are the construction owners normally. Let’s start with BIM.

Mathias Kuhn (09:22.832)
I think we offer the whole palette, which starts with consulting, consulting mandates at the very beginning, where we can help a customer to build up his BIM competence, to be able to formulate an order against us, against other planners, of course, also against construction companies. Then it is quite clear that we are doing classical modeling.

as an offer within our projects, where we also do support planning and so on, but also modeling for other planners, if necessary. Then there is beam management, beam coordination, also within your own projects or in other projects, then from other planning groups. And then there are components where we develop tools, develop processes.

which we need internally, but which we can also give externally, if that makes sense. This goes so far that we have made a platform with which you can write elements based on, where then a company can click on a file, a carrier and can add a price there. This was then also tested on several projects and a glass function was displayed.

Johannes (10:44.83)
We can maybe talk about how this is going on with the element-based writing. Today we want to talk about BIM in maintenance. BIM itself has been around for a long time, I would say about 30 years. But mainly in the new construction, when you plan a project from scratch. Today in Europe, again…

more invested in the maintenance than in the new construction. That means that it would be interesting to use the beam model more in maintenance. What would you say are the differences between beam use in maintenance and in new construction?

Mathias Kuhn (11:27.718)
I think there is a big difference in the new green meadow. I don’t need many foundations to be able to pull out a model there. In the preservation I have a existing object, I may have plans for that, but maybe not. Maybe you only see the surfaces, don’t know what’s behind it, behind a carpet or something. And the geometries are not as rectangular as we imagine them.

And that means the challenge is actually before we can actually start planning, we have to first create the basis in the holder. That means creating geometry or a existing model. That is the big challenge.

Johannes (12:15.837)
I don’t imagine it to be that easy. I’m coming to the Fridolin Bridge at Stein in the Canton of Ago, Switzerland. We have already spoken with the producer Hydrojet, with José Martinez, who implemented the project on site. You were the planners in this case. I repeat again briefly the Fridolin Bridge.

If anyone has not heard the last episode, it was built in 1979, is 244 meters long, 13 meters wide, has three tension fields across the Rhine and is a canton road. Did I forget something important? Coop? All right. I saw that the construction site has been divided into three phases, so that the traffic, vehicles and pedestrians are always there.

Mathias Kuhn (12:58.731)
No, that’s the relevant thing you said.

Johannes (13:11.189)
the bridge to cross, which means that the traffic had to be partly guided over the G-Straight and there was also a suspension frame for pedestrian traffic, at least in one phase. Were these decision-making measures taken into account already with the original planning or do you as Basel and Hoffmann have to calculate this again statically, for example in traffic over the G-Straight? How was that?

Mathias Kuhn (13:39.466)
We had to calculate the traffic over the G-Steg. It was not planned originally. It is also logical when you build a bridge, or you used to assume that you can take it out of operation again for a few months or so. It didn’t happen before. In this case, we had to prove that it works and that the traffic is right.

important axis in the border traffic between Germany and Switzerland, that it works.

Johannes (14:14.594)
I understand. And now you came to the beam-input. One of the few beam-inputs in the maintenance of existing objects. Maybe you can explain to us how it was applied, what you have taken over for work, maybe explain what you have done in a few steps and how it can be done.

Mathias Kuhn (14:39.77)
Basically, we think that if we want to use BIM as a society or as an industry to become more efficient, better, better data accessibility, better archives and so on, better project understanding, then we should not only have these processes under the new construction, but also for the employees.

This has to do with the fact that we work a lot with the stock, at least in infrastructure construction, road traffic, railways, that you actually work a lot with the stock there. That means we want to be able to develop the stock with BIM, we have to understand that, we have to learn that. And that was actually the motivation, with which we went to the Kantenargau, in the framework of the project order, whether we…

to engage there, where we can take a step. We are very grateful that the Kantenarga has supported and supported this. The procedure is relatively simple. It is a classic procedure, as you know it. You first have to get a stock in hand. In this case, these are not 2D plans that you have digitized, but some scans.

of hand plans from A to Z, but here a model was built up, including the preload cables, relatively detailed, and then the work on this model, the measures implemented, modeled, including the materials, phase description, etc. This is actually the basic procedure. Then the creation was done. We could also do this based on a large part of the elements.

That means that instead of writing out for the console head so and so many square meters of scale, then so and so much concrete, so and so much coating from these different diameter, including after-treatment and so on, you then modeled the console head. You defined the requirements, the type of coating, how much coating is in there, in kilograms per cubic meter or the like. And…

Mathias Kuhn (17:01.666)
The entrepreneur made a price for this console head. Once the console head is on the top of the page, it costs so and so much. And then the tasks were handed over to the client. And when the console head is finished, the entrepreneur can put the console head on top of the page in the account, according to the task. And that makes the thing much easier on the page, but in the account, building and so on.

What is special about the installation is that we don’t only have large measures, like coating, sealing, console heads or railings, but also small tasks that are not so specific yet. Initializing cracks, placement, flicking, rust, repairing. And I think there is already a step there, we have to learn even more. How can you do something like that?

in a model-based or element-based process, so that you don’t have to do an inspection, then you take pictures of cracks, then you draw them somehow in a plan, but in the end you still go out and mark the cracks again so that the entrepreneur knows which cracks he has to flicker, then it is calculated at some point. I think we have to study this topic even further, we have made certain approaches here in this project.

You don’t model a crack in the model, but we have placed a symbol of a crack there, where you could then recognize that the measure is needed. But we have to get hold of these processes further, study them so that we have the continuity of the inspection at the very beginning or maybe even 10 to 20 years before a measure, when you discover a crack, until the crack is maybe repaired at the end.

including materials, injections and so on.

Johannes (19:04.214)
I have also drawn the cracks in the model and then also on site. The work was done twice in this case.

Mathias Kuhn (19:12.09)
We marked the cracks in the model with symbols. That was hammer and screwdriver. That was a measure. And that’s how I defined such measures.

Johannes (19:25.203)
There are start-ups that are now doing automatic risk recognition. Could you theoretically use this to record the forward and then automatically take it into the model?

Mathias Kuhn (19:40.798)
That’s a very interesting topic. I think it still needs a while. Because when you look at pictures, the recordings are still very heterogeneous, depending on which camera system they are made with, depending on the light influence. And then, as we know, when we look at a photo, we find out if it’s a crack or…

a spider or something, that is difficult to recognize. But there will be a way in this direction, I’m pretty sure.

Johannes (20:14.422)
Mm-hmm.

Johannes (20:21.426)
This is very clear to me with the element-based creation. Normally you make a performance mark, where you have to write exactly which works are in detail requested by the manufacturer. Often it comes to claims or to reports, because you forget, for example, that you need a frame when working from 2.20 meters and do not come with a injection system, for example. Just as an example.

That’s not a big deal for the element-based procurement, right? You don’t have to write it down in detail. Of course, this is done during the writing-down, during the production of the performance record time, and probably saves money on reports and claims. Would you say the use of it, how much compared to the effort in producing the B-model, is balanced again?

Can we compare that?

Mathias Kuhn (21:21.614)
Yes, I think that if you create the BIM model anyway for a construction project or for a project and communicate what measures are in place, also against the customer, the client and all in all other participants, then the step to a good description is no longer that big. But what is the topic at the moment is the effort that is currently being, and that is a disadvantage of the method,

that you then give your effort to the entrepreneur for many things. In the course of the creation of the offer. There are still the standards, the best practice, how to describe something like that. But I think that’s normal for such a storm and strife phase, that you have to find that out. And there are more examples below that.

where you have the feeling that you could slowly sign off on a so-called best practice.

Johannes (22:22.769)
That means the effort for you to create the BIM model is not in comparison for you as a planning office for the benefits you get for the performance certificate, so to use it for less work and then maybe for the claim management. So for you as a planning office it is not in comparison because the effort for the BIM model is still so high to create it. I understand that.

Mathias Kuhn (22:50.066)
Yes, I think if we can work really continuously and without any process problems, if you are just before a deadline and suddenly everything turns again, then it will be difficult, but it will also be difficult conventionally. If we can work without process problems, then it will definitely be under test, if you have already trained the people, so if there is no longer a large learning component.

then we will soon be on the road similar to the effort. Also, the advantage of the client management from our experience with some projects is that the building process then runs a lot more smoothly. You notice that simply because of this binding planning, which is higher in planning quality. Because you see more, or all three things should be clarified, not just those two…

the cuts that have been decided, where you show such a cut. The disadvantage at the moment is effectively this extra effort, lack of standardization when creating a supply chain company.

Johannes (24:04.433)
Okay, I understand. I have seen that you mainly use point cloud in this project. There are also other technologies like photogrammetry. What do you think of the combination of a 3D model with such technologies? Is it a big effort or…

Mathias Kuhn (24:24.706)
I think the path has to go there. What happens if you create a point cloud or a mesh, no matter if it’s with LIDAR or with any iPhone scanner or with a real laser scanner. The disadvantage is that you only see the visible and accessible surfaces. What’s behind it you can’t see. That means we have to find the way

and technology in conventional modelling, then effective laser scanning or geometry recording, image recording, how to combine this, so that you have a robust basis to plan a measure.

Johannes (25:09.501)
In this case, I think I have taken the lead and the application iron into the model, which is a relatively large effort, especially since it is not so easy, as you said, in comparison to the original plans, how it was actually installed. Is that the future anyway for every bi-model in the future? Or is it perhaps not always necessary?

to take over this level of detail.

Mathias Kuhn (25:40.946)
I think that’s not always necessary. Basically, you can hope that when you do new construction, then in the models that you need 20, 30 years for a start-up, that the preload is in there, the operation is also in there and that it is really in there, then you can use that. At the moment, the effect drive is about finding out in a early phase, what do I need at all for my measures to be able to plan these measures correctly.

The length of the bridge was important because we had to replace shafts, we had to attach the frame for the footpaths in the right place. And then it was about understanding or minimizing the risk of damaging a cable. Nevertheless, we did the probe on site. That was also correct.

Mathias Kuhn (26:37.674)
because the cross-propane systematical, no not even systematical, but simply in one or the other direction was not at the place where it was actually intended and that was then relevant for certain holes and things, so that you know where it is. Exactly, that’s actually the topic. And that is also part of the process that we have to do. We have to find out what we need.

in a project, at what time, so that the project can be developed. That depends on which measures are taken. It’s such an iterative process.

Johannes (27:19.069)
I’ve heard that on the part of the portfolio team at Eigentümern there are already considerations to simply roughly make 3D models of the entire portfolio or part of the portfolio, which cannot be used for a project, for an implementation, even where you can already make rough presentations. Would it be possible to take on such a rough 3D model?

Johannes (27:49.94)
Would this information help you with the design? Or do you have to start over with the design for a B model?

Mathias Kuhn (28:00.534)
I think this helps very well, at least in early stages of a project, where you develop the concepts, only that you understand together at a meeting what is left, what is right, where do we have the problems. I think it’s normal that you take up relatively a lot of information and can also save it easier.

This helps for sure, it also helps when you’re outside and you’re thinking, yes, the shaft is here, or the crosswalk is a bit further back or a bit further forward.

Johannes (28:35.989)
And of course, the future would be for me, if you take this model as a base and build on it, then the verification and the suspension is projected. At the moment, it’s probably still the case that you make a new model from the beginning, that there are two models. Probably.

Mathias Kuhn (28:55.582)
Yes, I think whether one or two models, we have to think about what the definition of a model is. Is it simply a file that can be put together or stored in another storage, or is a model the entirety of all the files you have, or is it even more, including databases that are connected? I think that’s exactly where there are possibilities that you use a rough model and then maybe only the…

and then model and add the necessary measures more precisely. This is where the path has to go, because as a society we probably cannot afford to build up complete, very detailed and precise models of each object, where every screw and everything is included.

Johannes (29:30.078)
Okay.

Johannes (29:50.067)
Back to the beginning, you said that it depends on the application file, which data you need, and that more experience is probably needed here. Exactly, and that it’s actually about finding an intermediate path that makes sense for everyone. Maybe summarizing, what were the lessons from the project for you?

Thank you for watching!

Mathias Kuhn (30:12.654)
So basically the teaching is actually the positive, it works. It works in planning, it works in the creation, but it also works in the implementation afterwards, including the calculation. That’s actually very good. There are things that you learn, but which may not have anything to do with BIM.

The performance must be ordered as precisely as possible. You have to say what you want, otherwise the entrepreneur can’t make an offer. That is independent, BIM or conventional. And what we also have in the current situation is that we are modeling the building, if we model it according to plans, that it has changed in the last decades.

Mathias Kuhn (31:19.143)
Especially a bridge that is pre-stretched, there are several effects. Sometimes elastic

Mathias Kuhn (31:36.794)
Even now, when we implement measures, we also have building tolerances. And there is such a superlative of effects and the only thing that is actually the problem here is the shine accuracy in the model and as a teacher we have to think as firmly as before when we develop a project that we have these inaccuracies so that we can also prepare measures or a backup plan if something is not as expected.

Johannes (32:08.453)
I understand. Interesting. What would you say is the future of Bieminder Haltung? How could it look like in 10, 15 years?

Mathias Kuhn (32:22.498)
My big hope is that in 10, 20 years, when you go out on a construction site, that you can load it on a computer or tablet or even on glasses and that you can call off the construction site history. Where did it have cracks, what materials were built in, what are the building components, that you can collect this information and if something has changed,

a rust spot, a crack, so that you can simply add it. And then when you do a design, you have the basic conditions available very quickly to then be able to design measures, to be able to implement these requirements and then the system actually lives on. So that you have a digital image of the state of the building outside.

where everything is visible. And that is of course in contrast to what we have today, where we have plans, then there are some documents of measures that have been made, but the overall picture is very complex to synthesize or produce. I hope that it will be easier with BIM or model-based work.

Johannes (33:50.058)
Okay, what do you mean by that? Is it still necessary to get there?

Mathias Kuhn (33:56.846)
I think the basic technology is available. What is necessary for this are certainly more efficient recording methods, so that you can quickly digitize these structures that exist. It takes the corresponding software systems or server systems that can bring these data together. And then it also takes a lot of work, all that we no longer know what is done with a structure.

that we can understand this, at least add it, so that this whole construction history comes together in a model. It would be a shame if you then have a model that only covers the last five years of the construction and you still have to look at the old plans on the archive and on paper. And that is of course a lot of work.

Johannes (34:52.929)
Yes, I can imagine that. For listeners, construction engineers who can imagine a similar project as you have done, to use BIM in a construction site, for example in a bridge or other objects, what would you give them? What would the industry help to get here?

Mathias Kuhn (35:15.914)
I think the most important thing is… I don’t want to advertise for a sports article manufacturer, just do it. I think that’s important. Try, consciously try, but also consciously know that you can fall. And then it’s up to you to get up again and continue. You can reflect in between or you have to reflect whether what you do is right. But you have to admit mistakes.

And then the other important thing, if you want to learn something, if you want to continue the construction industry, then you have to communicate it. Talk about what you have done, what you have learned, pass it on. And then effectively try it out. Together we take a step further.

Johannes (35:50.024)
Yeah.

Johannes (36:00.593)
Yes, it is also interesting. In the past, it was always the case that each project needed a BIM specialist and a BIM manager. In the future, if we want to use this cover-up, every engineer should be able to use a BIM model. How would you say that engineers can continue to build or learn more? You said that you share this information. Where can you share it?

We’ll come back to more information.

Mathias Kuhn (36:33.746)
I think there are good educational offers on the market. Courses, webinars, whatever. There are any social networks where you can inform yourself relatively easily what is currently going on. Then of course there is the possibility that you can buy in competently with new employees or advisory services.

This is an option, but ultimately, and I believe we all know this from school, you learn when you do it yourself. And it is important that you simply do not completely forget the priority or that. Doing it yourself is important.

Johannes (37:18.273)
All right, that was very informative, very interesting. I hope you have taken a little respect from the listeners and construction engineers who want to work on such projects for such a BIM operation. And I would like to thank you for being here, Matthias. It was a very interesting episode and I hope the listeners enjoyed it too. Thank you very much.

Mathias Kuhn (37:39.086)
Thank you very much, have a nice day!